The following is a discussion about gender and sports, related to whether or not trans athletes can participate in sports designated for their chosen gender.
There seems to be a bit of a pause in the cultural discourse around these gender issues. Perhaps we have been directed by our ever-illustrious and (ahem) non-aligned media sources to spend our attention capital elsewhere. Certainly, there is that ever-captivating courtroom drama (drama?) regarding a certain buffoon’s vociferously denied sexual exploits and real estate shenanigans. Then there is the magnetic and passionately engaged-in debate about whether protesting genocide makes one antisemitic, or if being against said genocide requires one to wish for the dissolution of a nation formed from violence and geopolitical greed and older than a fifth of the nations on the planet also formed from violence and geopolitical greed. (I'm guessing at the one-fifth bit, but hey... betcha its close)
The following somewhat dated discussion rose up out of the ether on my Facebook “Memories” feed recently. It is almost ten years old. I rarely if ever have these kinds of open and good-natured discussions online anymore, the online antagonism increasingly seems so easy a well to tap into and make a mess with. I have largely withdrawn from any exchange of ideas that someone may ultimately make into their own personal/impersonal assumptive scratching post. That is, unless I want to have a little fun.
Nine people participated in this conversation. I have given them all letters instead of their names and, um, genders, being unsure of their willingness to have their part in such a controversial topic known more widely. Besides, perhaps their ideas and questions about the whole thing have evolved. Mine have. But I kind of liked this discussion and I feel it has real value.
Interesting, the primary point that sifted through among a number of the participants in this debate seemed to be whether women were physically endowed to be capable to compete with men in sports. I find that concern rather short-sighted and disingenuous, even uninformed, and come to that conclusion in this talk, though I understand its genesis.
Over the course of history and in the relatively recent evolution of cultural equity when it comes to men and women and their roles and abilities, many many attributes and abilities thought to be specific to one gender or the other have fallen, thankfully, to the wayside. The rationale that arises, that women have neither the strength or preternatural ability to participate equally with men in many sports, sounds suspiciously to me like the kinds of rationales used in the past to deny women equal access to almost every professional and creative field of endeavor. And what would it look like if a system were put into place that only allowed, say, women lawyers to represent other women? Their own, separate but equal, legal teams and cases?
How would we know if women could compete equally when it has only been a few decades since they were encouraged, allowed, to cultivate an interest and develop the skillsets to participate in most sports at all?
On to the discussion, which I started with a meme I created that asked the following:
questions: can trans girls play in male sports? Also: why can't women play in male sports if they want to? A: There often is a physical difference in size and strength. Bob Vance often is not always. If women want to play in a male dominated sport and show they are able why not... I mean, didn't Billie Jean King prove that women can out compete men? I betcha there are female basketball players who can out play male basketball players.... so if trans girls are prevented from playing on female teams (whether that prohibition is warranted or not) then they should be allowed to play on male teams. B: I think they don't want to and some straight men would endanger them Bob Vance some straight men would and do endanger other straight men... there was a problem with that when black men were allowed in sports... that is a problem of enforcement and ethics in oversight not whether they can and should be able to compete and where/with whom A: Good point! Bob Vance when I was a kid the most bullying I endured was in gym class from other boys... and the coaches didn't take the time to teach guys like me who could have benefitted from instruction and they rarely if ever reprimanded bullies. Sometimes tacitly or overtly encouraged bullying. Interesting enough, I am pretty athletic now compared to most my age B: how's this for a generalization... Jocks are the worst and they grow up to become cops
C: Women usually are allowed into men's sports. You don't see it often if ever in pro team sports because they would have to prove they're better than any man on the team, which is difficult, and obviously biased. I don't think it's ever really happened at top pro divisions in any major sport, but it has happened at lower levels. Bob Vance I think that's where the problem lies. The sexist assumption that men are more physically gifted for sports and will always be better. While that might be a possibility for some sports, the physical attributes of men and women vary dramatically... so while some physical types (regardless of gender attributes) might actually be more adaptable to certain kinds of sports the overlaps are broad and assumptions about men being better do not take into account the lack of opportunity for women to be allowed compete with men and develop those skills. Again: Billie Jean King proved that the assumption that men and women cannot compete fairly in sport because men are more naturally predisposed to be better is an unproven assumption based on the supposition of male superiority..... It's like saying women are better caregivers than men... by nature... I know from experience that this isn't true though the nature of how men have been enculturated into certain behavioral patterns and reinforced in them over generations may require a different approach to "training" and learning skills that are presumed to be "natural" in females.... when given the opportunity and the right approach men are equal to the task of caregiving and sometimes better. D: This is exactly what I was thinking. Within the old fashioned notions of male and female have always been all levels of physical size, skill, competitiveness, on and on. I was NEVER a sports guy, didn't fit in at all, to the point of being virtually left out of "male" childhood because so much of being "all boy" centered on physical competition and aggression. I am so glad these delineations are finally eroding. C: it's a fair assumption for most sports. Even in a sport like rock climbing, where many of the top females are better than some professional males, they are still nowhere near the top 5. E: i've always thought women were more physically gifted. Bob Vance is the assumption here that sports should only be undertaken if there is a chance that the participant can and must win? I have some pretty big reservations about where that assumption comes from. Is "top five" thinking entertained without thinking about the historical psychosexual/cultural norms that have kept women (and men in some sports or other areas/practices) from developing the skills required? If given the opportunity and time and taken out of the necessity of adhering to the cultural demands of gender norms do, we still believe that women could not be in the top five rock climbers? Bob Vance (to ‘D”) I share your experience almost completely and process this a lot and have since I was a kid... though there were many "boy" things I enjoyed, in the ones that seemed to be required most of me as a "boy" I was lacking any gift or simply had no interest. I tell the story often about how I was never a very gifted baseball player, but enjoyed backyard and informal empty lot games... but as soon as I was being encouraged to join a little league team, I remember going to a family friend's kids' games and being absolutely horrified by the behavior of the parents... yelling and hollering with very intense and warped expressions and mean ness... I knew then I would never want to be involved in such a thing. I never mastered extreme competition and am really glad for it, but it hobbled my performance in such pursuits. So I feel I have processed and come to terms with my "gender" since early on and understand that the culture's demands on me to fit into a narrow set of behaviors and attitudes because of its own interpretation of "boyness" are the problem of the culture not the problem of me or my body. C: if one was to make a roster of the top 20 rock climbers in the world, there's a good chance one or two women would make the list. I think for any sport it's really a numbers game, perhaps .5% of women are capable of reaching an elite level, whereas the number might be 1% for men, but the number of men that try vastly outnumbers the women who try, so the end result is one elite female athlete a generation, and that's only in sports that are somewhat welcoming. Bob Vance (to C) so the statistics are overwhelming impacted by the nature of who is encouraged and enculturated to explore and practice the activity... and not a true or accurate measure of whether women could in fact excel. Interest in an activity that is actively promoted and perceived as a "male" activity is inherently imbued with sexist reasoning and historical cultural norms that are not related to maleness and/or female ness... this is proven over and over as women are allowed to participate in activities that were once considered to be male in nature... and visa versa. C: I can't argue with your logic there. I do firmly believe that women would be in the minority in many sports if the playing field really was fair at all levels, but they'd be there, especially in sports that value coordination and flexibility over raw strength, which is a whole lot of sports. Bob Vance the level of skill and interest in sports that used to be considered male superior has changed dramatically since Title 9, which required that women/girls sports programs be given equal funding and "room".... and that has been in just the 30 years or so since it went into effect. Who knows what could happen in the next 30? EG: 50 years ago how many women would even attempt rock climbing? Given encouragement and equal opportunity, who knows how that will impact the numbers, skill levels, interest levels? I think, taking an opposite view... the numbers of men in nursing have climbed dramatically in the past 20 years since the idea that only women can be nurses has eroded with the advent of feminist thought in the workplace. F: Good questions, seems to be the questions to answer as a society regarding gender. F: Semenya, an excellent example of this conundrum. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya]
G: I feel like if a separation is felt as far as not identifying as female or male, then there should be a category made to fit the need. Or maybe there is an all gender category that also arises- I do believe that if a student has or is working with the goal of a sexual reassignment they should be treated as such and play with the gender they are working towards becoming (emotionally and physically). I’ve been thinking for years of a local school that would honor diversity of races, genders and so on and use that extra awareness to create a social justice oriented school complete with a focus on personal narratives and how they help allow society to better understand one another. E: the 4th paragraph. we got this. 20yrs this do on may 18th. non-binary pronouns, no problem. sue bird on my highschool b-ball team, absofuckinglutely. this fight for human dignity is, like bulldozer bob says, one part body, one part brain, 43 parts… Bob Vance I think the problem for me is that the word "gender" is not being defined so much as being used to categorize and I'm convinced that the problem is the expectation of how gender must be expressed, not gender itself. Categorization makes for, sows, division... and my question remains: what IS gender? In all this babble about it there seems not to be a common definition at play. E: what does gender mean to you? Bob Vance (to E) gender means what scientifically verifiable bio-chemistry and genetic/chromosomal makeup exists in me that gave me and is a result of my XY chromosome... how I express myself, my person and my interests and passions exists in a very wide (and rich!) spectrum that is not reliant on my gender. My gender is not my self-expression. My personhood is not my gender. Gender to me is a physical attribute of my body. (Thanks for asking btw... helps me think this through) E: i know. it took awhile. i knew you were thinking/composing. G I did not get that question out of the one posed regarding sports . . . If gender is a construct, it is a malleable one, yet not in the eyes of all and maybe not for all occasions. If I want to a have an exam of my ovaries, I’d say gender physiologically and absolutely exists and is of medical importance. Expression is quite different, isn’t it? And also, may be context dependent. Maybe it’s even more context dependent? Do you already have an answer to this that exists as right? The problem is in whose expectations? I’ll be watching this thread. And it’s wonderful that you are sharing out this topic- and realize it’s close to your heart. Not that it ever wasn’t. It would be great if the younger people could enjoy more understanding and more often than prior ones regarding their needs and feelings and how they wish to present themselves based on what they know to be true about themselves despite appearances.
Bob Vance I asked the questions because I don't know the answers and wanted to spur discussion that helps me think this through for myself in the context of what is happening to young people around these issues... not all of it very helpful... and I think sports and the issue of transpeople and women and sports has somehow become central to this... as sports were in my own searching when I was an adolescent and how my relationship to sports played a major role in how I was expected to express my gender.... Bob Vance I expect and enjoy a meandering thread too.... H: Concerning competitive sports. Bob, You and others on this thread are/were probably not competitive athletes. Most women are not physically capable of competing on competitive male sports teams. In pre-adult non contact sports yes, many girls are equals and stand outs. My teen sister playing softball 3rd base for the Pittsburgh Debs, they accepted a challenge game against a male teen team. The Debs won. As world female tennis champion Serena Williams stated in an interview concerning women tennis pros challenging pro male players, " I have about the same power as a male college player". Source, Sports Illustrated. A male transgender to female was authorized to battle women in MMA bouts. This individual had two bouts. In the first she broke a woman's jaw shortly into round one. In the second contest she fractured a woman's skull in the first round. That was it, the MMA federation forbids male to female transgenders from competing in MMA women's competitions. Women MMA competitors threatened to sue the MMA if it authorized another match-up like this. There has been no female sports groups opposing the decision. The perpetrator reveled she had no combat training and no prior bouts before these matches. Source, Joe Rogan, podcaster, MMA announcer, former jujutsu division champion. Guys, your virtue signaling is naive and shows you have no idea and experience concerning what you're talking about. Personally, as a member of a Pittsburgh high school city champions cross country team and a teen regional ping pong champion and a men's flag football player - I do. Bob Vance (to H) this thread is not meant to be a competition or argument but a presentation of questions and potential resolutions, ideas and proposals and continued exploration of the topic.( I also don't know what you mean by "virtue signaling".) In that way it is also rather void of real research, science-based outcomes and exploration of the current state of skill levels as well as the evolution of aptitude and skill in sports by women. Everything else in the thread and in your comment is anecdotal. There is value in that if not absolute accuracy or science. Perhaps that is all there is available. As I proposed earlier in the thread, since Title 9 was instituted many barriers in women's skill and previously assumed competitive advantage/disadvantage have been smashed as women have been given the opportunity, right, to compete at equally encouraged (financial support and otherwise) levels in all sports. I expect that this trend will continue. I am still interested in perspective on my question about whether male-female trans athletes are able to compete on male teams... why they would or wouldn't be or would or wouldn't choose to be. Bob Vance "The trail of the Amazons nearly went cold after Herodotus. Until, that is, the early 1990s when a joint U.S.-Russian team of archaeologists made an extraordinary discovery while excavating 2,000-year-old burial mounds—known as kurgans—outside Pokrovka, a remote Russian outpost in the southern Ural Steppes near the Kazakhstan border. There, they found over 150 graves belonging to the Sauromatians and their descendants, the Sarmatians. Among the burials of “ordinary women,” the researchers uncovered evidence of women who were anything but ordinary. There were graves of warrior women who had been buried with their weapons. One young female, bowlegged from constant riding, lay with an iron dagger on her left side and a quiver containing 40 bronze-tipped arrows on her right. The skeleton of another female still had a bent arrowhead embedded in the cavity. Nor was it merely the presence of wounds and daggers that amazed the archaeologists. On average, the weapon-bearing females measured 5 feet 6 inches, making them preternaturally tall for their time." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/.../amazon-women-there.../ [SMITHSONIANMAG.COM The Amazon Women: Is There Any Truth Behind the Myth?]